Moody’s has just dropped the long-awaited hammer on the US banking sector, downgrading JP Morgan, Goldman Sachs, Citi, Morgan Stanley and Bank of America among 15 total banks!
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Morgan Stanley slashed 2 notches- just avoiding triggering $9.6 Billion in margin calls had it received the 3 notch cut!
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10 banks slashed 2 notches
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JP Morgan cut from A2 to Aa3, outlook negative
Full Release below:
Moody’s downgrades firms with global capital markets operations
New York, June 21, 2012 — Moody’s Investors Service today repositioned the ratings of 15 banks and securities firms with global capital markets operations. The long-term senior debt ratings of 4 of these firms were downgraded by 1 notch, the ratings of 10 firms were downgraded by 2 notches and 1 firm was downgraded by 3 notches. In addition, for four firms, the short-term ratings of their operating companies were downgraded to Prime-2. All four of those firms also now have holding company short-term ratings at Prime-2. The holding company short-term ratings of another two firms were downgraded to Prime-2 as well.
“All of the banks affected by today’s actions have significant exposure to the volatility and risk of outsized losses inherent to capital markets activities”, says Moody’s Global Banking Managing Director Greg Bauer. “However, they also engage in other, often market leading business activities that are central to Moody’s assessment of their credit profiles. These activities can provide important ‘shock absorbers’ that mitigate the potential volatility of capital markets operations, but they also present unique risks and challenges.” The specific credit drivers for each affected firm are summarized below.
Today’s rating actions conclude the review initiated on 15 February 2012 when Moody’s announced a ratings review prompted by its reassessment of the volatility and risks that creditors of firms with global capital markets operations face. In the past, these risks have led many institutions to fail or to require outside support, including several firms affected by today’s rating actions. Today’s actions, however, reflect not only the credit implications of capital markets operations. They also reflect (i) the size and stability of earnings from non-capital markets activities of each firm, (ii) capitalization, (iii) liquidity buffers, and (iv) other considerations, including, as applicable, exposure to the operating environment in Europe, any record of risk management problems, and risks from exposure to US residential mortgages, commercial real estate or legacy portfolios.
OVERVIEW OF TODAY’S RATING ACTIONS
Moody’s has taken action on the following holding company ratings:
Bank of America Corporation
Long-term senior unsecured debt to Baa2 from Baa1, outlook negative; Short-term P-2 affirmed
Barclays plc
Long-term issuer rating to A3 from A1, outlook negative; Short-term to P-2 from P-1
Citigroup Inc.
Long-term senior debt to Baa2 from A3, outlook negative; short-term P-2 affirmed
Credit Suisse Group AG
Provisional senior debt to (P)A2 from (P)Aa2, outlook stable; Provisional Short-term (P)P-1 affirmed
The Goldman Sachs Group, Inc.
Long-term senior unsecured debt to A3 from A1, outlook negative; Short-term to P-2 from P-1
HSBC Holdings plc
Long-term senior debt to Aa3 from Aa2, outlook negative; Provisional Short-term (P)P-1 affirmed
JPMorgan Chase & Co.
Long-term senior debt to A2 from Aa3, outlook negative; Short-term P-1 affirmed
Morgan Stanley
Long-term senior unsecured debt to Baa1 from A2; outlook negative; Short-term to P-2 from P-1
Royal Bank of Scotland Group plc
Long-term senior debt to Baa1 from A3, outlook negative; Short-term P-2 affirmed
Moody’s has taken action on the following operating company ratings:
Bank of America, N.A.
Long-term deposit rating to A3 from A2, outlook stable; Short-term to P-2 from P-1
Barclays Bank plc
Long-term issuer rating to A2 from Aa3, outlook negative; Short-term P-1 affirmed
BNP Paribas
Long-term debt and deposit rating to A2 from Aa3; outlook stable; Short-term P-1 affirmed
Citibank, N.A.
Long-term deposit rating to A3 from A1, outlook stable; Short-term to P-2 from P-1
Credit Agricole S.A.
Long-term debt and deposit rating to A2 from Aa3, outlook negative; Short-term P-1 affirmed
Credit Suisse AG
Long-term deposit and senior debt rating to A1 from Aa1, outlook stable; Short-term P-1 affirmed
Deutsche Bank AG
Long-term deposit rating to A2 from Aa3, outlook stable; Short-term P-1 affirmed
Goldman Sachs Bank USA
Long-term deposit rating to A2 from Aa3, outlook stable; Short-term P-1 affirmed
HSBC Bank plc
Long-term deposit rating to Aa3 from Aa2, outlook negative; Short-term P-1 affirmed
JPMorgan Chase Bank, N.A.
Long-term deposit rating to Aa3 from Aa1, outlook stable; Short-term P-1 affirmed
Morgan Stanley Bank, N.A.
Long-term deposit rating to A3 from A1, outlook stable; Short-term to P-2 from P-1
Royal Bank of Canada
Long-term deposit rating to Aa3 from Aa1, outlook stable; Short-term P-1 affirmed
Royal Bank of Scotland plc
Long-term deposit rating to A3 from A2; outlook negative; Short-term to P-2 from P-1
Societe Generale
Long-term debt and deposit to A2 from A1; outlook stable; Short-term P-1 affirmed
UBS AG
Long-term debt and deposit to A2 from Aa3, outlook stable; Short-term P-1 confirmed.
Please click on the following link to access the full list of affected credit ratings. This list is an integral part of this press release and identifies each affected issuer: http://www.moodys.com/viewresearchdoc.aspx?docid=PBC_143274.
RATINGS RATIONALE — STANDALONE CREDIT DRIVERS
Moody’s assessment of each firm’s standalone credit profile led to the following relative positioning of the firms:
–FIRST GROUP
The first group of firms includes HSBC, Royal Bank of Canada and JPMorgan. Capital markets operations (and the associated risks) are significant for these firms. However, these institutions have stronger buffers, or ‘shock absorbers,’ than many of their peers in the form of earnings from other, generally more stable businesses. This, combined with their risk management through the financial crisis, has resulted in lower earnings volatility. Capital and structural liquidity are sound for this group, and their direct exposure to stressed European sovereigns and financial institutions is contained.
Firms in this group now have standalone credit assessments of a3 or better (on a scale from aaa, highest, to c, lowest). Their main operating companies now have deposit ratings of Aa3, and their holding companies, where they exist, have senior debt ratings between Aa3 and A2. Their short-term ratings are Prime-1 at both the operating and holding company level.
–SECOND GROUP
The second group of firms includes Barclays, BNP Paribas, Credit Agricole SA (CASA), Credit Suisse, Deutsche Bank, Goldman Sachs, Societe Generale and UBS. Many of these firms rely on capital markets revenues to meet shareholder expectations. Their relative position reflects a combination of differentiating and sometimes adverse factors. Capital markets operations constitute a large part of the overall franchises for Credit Suisse, Goldman Sachs, Barclays, and Deutsche Bank, but less so for UBS, Societe Generale, BNP Paribas and CASA’s cooperative group, Groupe Credit Agricole.
Other factors contribute to the relative positioning. For example, Barclays, BNP Paribas and Groupe Credit Agricole have, to varying degrees, relatively robust shock absorbers. Exposure to capital markets businesses is very high for Goldman Sachs, but this is balanced by a record of effective risk management. Barclays, BNP Paribas, Groupe Credit Agricole, and Deutsche Bank also have sizeable but varying degrees of exposure to weaker European economies. Some firms are relatively weak with regard to structural liquidity or reliance on wholesale funding.
Firms in this group now have standalone credit assessments of baa1 or baa2. Their deposit ratings range between A1 and A2, and their short-term ratings are Prime-1 at the operating company level. Their holding companies, where they exist, have senior debt ratings between A2 and A3 and short-term ratings between Prime-1 and Prime-2.
–THIRD GROUP
The third group of firms includes Bank of America, Citigroup, Morgan Stanley, and Royal Bank of Scotland. The capital markets franchises of many of these firms have been affected by problems in risk management or have a history of high volatility, while their shock absorbers are in some cases thinner or less reliable than those of higher-rated peers. Most of the firms in this group have undertaken considerable changes to their risk management or business models, as required to limit the risks from their capital markets activities. Some are implementing business strategy changes intended to increase earnings from more stable activities. These transformations are ongoing and their success has yet to be tested. In addition, these firms may face remaining risks from run-off legacy or acquired portfolios, or from noteworthy exposure to the euro area debt crisis.
Firms in this group now have standalone credit assessments of baa3. Their deposit ratings are A3 at the operating company level. Their holding companies, where they exist, have senior debt ratings between Baa1 and Baa2. Their short-term ratings are Prime-2 at both the operating and holding company level.
Moody’s has today published a special comment titled “Key Drivers of Rating Actions on Firms with Global Capital Markets Operations” (http://www.moodys.com/viewresearchdoc.aspx?docid=PBC_143246), which provides more detail, including the rating rationale for each firm affected by today’s actions. Please refer to the following webpage for additional related announcements: http://www.moodys.com/bankratings2012
RATINGS RATIONALE – SENIOR DEBT AND DEPOSITS
Moody’s systemic support assumptions for firms with global capital markets operations remain high, given their systemic importance, and have not been a key driver of today’s rating actions. While Moody’s recognizes the clear intent of governments around the world to reduce support for creditors, the policy framework in many countries remains supportive for now, not least because of the economic stress currently stemming from the euro area and the potential systemic repercussions of large, disorderly bank failures and the difficulty of resolving large, complex and interconnected institutions.
However, reflecting the view that government support is likely to become less certain and predictable over time, Moody’s has assigned negative outlooks on certain supported ratings of entities affected by today’s actions, particularly at the holding company level, as discussed in detail in the firm-specific summaries below. Moody’s view on support considers efforts by policymakers globally to create resolution and bail-in regimes that allow for more flexible and limited support in a stress scenario.
RATINGS RATIONALE — SUBORDINATED DEBT AND HYBRIDS
In addition, Moody’s has today downgraded the subordinated debt and hybrid ratings of the firms whose senior debt ratings have been repositioned. The downgrades reflect the revised senior debt ratings and, in some cases, also the removal of systemic support assumptions from subordinated debt classes. In Moody’s view, systemic support in many countries is no longer sufficiently predictable and reliable going forward to warrant incorporating systemic-support driven uplift into these debt ratings.
RATING IMPLICATIONS FOR SOME SUBSIDIARIES WILL BE ASSESSED SEPARATELY
Moody’s has also today taken rating actions on a number of subsidiaries and legal entities of firms with global capital markets activities, as summarized below. However, for some other subsidiaries of firms included in today’s announcement, Moody’s will separately assess the impact of their parents’ reduced credit strength.
RATING REVIEWS OF MACQUARIE AND NOMURA WERE CONCLUDED EARLIER
Of the 17 banks and securities firms with global capital market operations that were placed on review for downgrade in February, the reviews of two firms were concluded separately. Please see the following press releases for further information: “Moody’s downgrades Nomura Holdings to Baa3 from Baa2; outlook stable, (http://v3.moodys.com/viewresearchdoc.aspx?docid=PR_240381) published 15 March 2012, and “Moody’s downgrades Macquarie Bank to A2, Macquarie Group to A3,” (http://v3.moodys.com/viewresearchdoc.aspx?docid=PR_240306) published 16 March 2012.
ISSUER SPECIFIC CONSIDERATIONS (ALPHABETICAL ORDER)
BANK OF AMERICA
Bank of America Corporation’s (BAC) senior unsecured debt ratings were downgraded to Baa2 from Baa1 and the deposit ratings of Bank of America, N.A. (BANA) were downgraded to A3/Prime-2 from A2/Prime-1. Bank of America Corporation’s Prime-2 short-term rating was affirmed. Moody’s also downgraded the bank’s standalone credit assessment to D+/baa3 from C-/baa2. The outlook on the standalone credit assessment and the ratings of BAC’s operating subsidiaries is stable, while that on the senior debt and subordinated debt ratings of (or guaranteed by) the parent holding company is negative.
BAC’s ratings benefit from three notches of uplift from the standalone credit assessment at the subsidiary bank level, and two notches of uplift at the holding company level, reflecting Moody’s assumptions about the very high likelihood of support from the US government for bondholders or other creditors in the event that such support is required to prevent a default.
The lowering of the standalone credit assessment to baa3 positions Bank of America in the third group of firms with significant global capital markets activities. This position reflects (i) the large absolute size and funding requirements of the bank’s capital markets activities; (ii) the bank’s relatively high historical earnings volatility and the problems in risk management and controls it experienced during the crisis, and (iii) constraints on the ability of Bank of America’s other businesses to provide strong earnings buffers to protect against capital markets risks, given the potential for additional losses on the bank’s large residential mortgage-related exposures (including its mortgage-related litigation exposures). Partly mitigating these risks are (i) the bank’s sound structural liquidity profile and large global excess liquidity pool; (ii) its improving capital levels and leverage that is below that of many of its peers; and (iii) enhancements to corporate governance and the risk management function.
The stable outlook on Bank of America’s standalone credit assessment and its bank-level ratings reflects the view that these risk factors have now been fully incorporated into the bank’s ratings. A significant reduction in the bank’s mortgage-related exposures could lead to upward pressure on the rating, while any indications of control failures, a marked increase in risk appetite or deterioration in capital levels would lead to downward pressure on the ratings.
The negative outlook on the parent holding company’s supported ratings reflects Moody’s view that government support for US bank holding company creditors is becoming less certain and less predictable, given the evolving attitude of US authorities to the resolution of large financial institutions, whereas support for creditors of operating entities remains sufficiently likely and predictable to warrant stable outlooks.
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BARCLAYS
Barclays Bank (Barclays) plc’s long-term deposit and debt ratings were downgraded to A2 from Aa3 and the bank’s Prime-1 short-term ratings were affirmed. The bank’s standalone credit assessment was lowered to C-/baa2 from C/a3. The senior debt and deposit ratings benefit from three notches of uplift from the standalone rating, reflecting Moody’s expectation of a very high probability of government support for the bank in the event of stress. The ratings of the holding company, Barclays plc, were downgraded to A3/ P-2 from A1/P-1. The outlook on the C- standalone rating is stable, whereas that on the A2 long-term deposit rating is negative, reflecting the view that government support for large UK banks will reduce over the medium term.
The lowering of the standalone credit assessment to baa2 places Barclays in the second group of firms with significant global capital market activities, that is, those with baseline credit assessments of baa1 or baa2. This position reflects (i) a relatively high proportion of revenues and earnings from global investment banking (GBP10.3 billion, representing 40% of revenues adjusted for fair value of own debt over 2009 – 2011); (ii) concentration risks inherent in investment banking (particularly to other financial institutions); and (iii) sensitivity to the weak operating environment in Europe, given the bank’s operations in Spain and Italy, as well as to the challenging environment in the UK. These factors are somewhat mitigated by (i) strong franchises in non-investment banking activities (albeit not all producing the returns targeted by management); (ii) track record of low historical earnings volatility compared with the peer group; (iii) good liquidity management, including a high-quality liquidity buffer, and an adequate funding profile; and (iv) capital levels that remain resilient under stress tests.
The stable outlook on Barclays’ standalone credit assessment reflects the view that capital markets-related risk factors have now been fully incorporated into the bank’s ratings.
If the more immediate risks in the operating environment in the UK and Europe were to recede or Barclays were to significantly strengthen the profitability of its non-investment banking businesses, the bank’s ratings could come under upward pressure. On the other hand, any indications of control failures, a marked increase in risk appetite or a deterioration in capital levels could lead to downward pressure on the ratings.
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BNP PARIBAS
BNP Paribas’s (BNPP) long-term debt and deposit ratings were downgraded by two notches, to A2 from Aa3. The bank’s Prime-1 short-term rating was affirmed. The standalone credit assessment was lowered by two notches, to C-/baa2 from C/a3. The outlook on both the standalone credit assessment and the long-term debt and deposit ratings is stable.
Senior debt and deposit ratings are rated A2 and incorporate three notches of uplift from government support assumptions.
BNPP’s dated subordinated and junior subordinated debt ratings were downgraded to Baa3 and (P)Ba1, respectively (one and two notches below its baa2 standalone credit assessment). The downgrades reflect the removal of government support assumptions from the dated subordinated debt instruments. In Moody’s view, government support in many European countries, including France, is no longer sufficiently predictable and reliable to warrant incorporating government support-driven uplift into these debt ratings. Ratings on preference shares were downgraded by two notches, to Ba2(hyb), and continue to be positioned three notches below the standalone credit assessment.
The lowering of the standalone credit assessment to baa2 places BNPP in the second group of firms with significant global capital market activities. This position reflects (i) the significant proportion of BNPP’s revenues generated by its capital markets business, which contributed 18% of group revenues on average between 2009 and 2011, and is a very significant business in its own right; (ii) the view that BNPP is more dependent on short-term wholesale funding and its liquidity position weaker compared to many of its global peers; and (iii) BNPP’s large exposures to economies under pressure from the broader euro area crisis, in particular Italy through its subsidiary BNL, which has a loan book of EUR71 billion, in addition to BNPP’s portfolio of sovereign bonds, of which EUR11 billion are Italian.
These factors are somewhat mitigated by BNPP’s (i) broad spread of generally strong businesses, predominantly in retail and commercial banking, which provide a more dependable stream of earnings and resultant advantages in terms of risk diversification and loss absorption capacity; (ii) strengthened capital position in anticipation of Basel III standards; (iii) materially reduced dependence on short-term US dollar funding, which proved unreliable; and (iv) relatively good track record in terms of risk management, including in its capital markets business.
BNPP’s ratings could come under upward pressure from a combination of (i) a material structural improvement in the bank’s liquidity and funding position; (ii) a reduction in the weight of the capital markets business within the group; and (iii) improving conditions in European markets. On the other hand, any indications of control failures, an increase in risk appetite or a willingness to increase leverage could lead to downward pressure on the bank’s ratings.
BANCA NAZIONALE DEL LAVORO
Banca Nazionale del Lavoro’s (BNL) long- and short-term deposit ratings were downgraded by three notches, to Baa2 (negative outlook)/Prime-2 from A2/Prime-1. This was prompted by the downgrade of its BFSR to D+ with a negative outlook (mapping to a ba1 standalone credit assessment), from C-/baa1.
The downgrade of BNL’s standalone credit assessment reflects the combined pressures on the bank’s asset quality, profitability and funding from the difficult operating environment. It also reflects BNL’s reliance on parental funding.
BNL’s long-term global local-currency (GLC) deposit rating is Baa2, based on Moody’s assessment of a very high probability of support from parent BNPP and a high probability of government support, if needed, which results in two notches of rating uplift from the ba1 standalone credit assessment. The negative outlook reflects the challenging operating environment in Italy.
With a reported problem loan ratio of 12.3% in 2011 (compared with 11.2% for the system), up from 10.6% in 2010, the bank’s focus on midsize corporate loans in central and southern Italy has weakened its asset quality. Profitability was low in 2011 and is unlikely to improve significantly in 2012. These factors create some vulnerability in BNL’s capital under Moody’s central scenario.
With loans equivalent to a high 212% of retail funding, BNL’s reliance on the ECB is above that of its Italian peers; it also relies heavily on BNPP. Moody’s believes that over time BNL may be required to reduce its use of parental funding, which may in turn create pressure to reduce its own balance sheet.
FORTIS BANK
Fortis Bank SA/NV’s (Fortis Bank) long-term debt and deposit ratings were downgraded by one notch, to A2 from A1, and are now in line with those of BNPP. The bank’s Prime-1 short-term rating was affirmed. The C-/baa1 standalone credit assessment is unaffected by today’s rating actions. The rating action reflects the downgrade of BNPP and the resultant impact on the parental support assumptions Moody’s incorporates into its long-term ratings. Further, the bank’s dated subordinated and junior subordinated debt ratings were downgraded to Baa2 and Baa3(hyb), respectively (one and two notches below its baa1 standalone credit assessment), following the removal of government support assumptions. The outlook on all the ratings is stable.
BGL BNP PARIBAS
BGL BNP Paribas’s long-term debt and deposit ratings were downgraded by one notch, to A2 from A1, and are in line with those of BNPP. The Prime-1 short-term rating was affirmed. The C/a3 standalone credit assessment is unaffected by today’s rating actions. The rating action reflects the downgrade of BNPP and the resultant impact on the parental support assumptions Moody’s incorporates into its long-term ratings. Further, the bank’s dated subordinated and junior subordinated debt ratings were downgraded to Baa1 and (P)Baa2, respectively (one and two notches below its a3 standalone credit assessment), following the removal of government support assumptions. The outlook on all the ratings is stable.
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CITIGROUP
Citigroup Inc.’s (Citi) long-term senior rating was lowered to Baa2 from A3. Citigroup Inc.’s Prime-2 short-term rating was affirmed. In addition, the long-term and short-term deposit ratings of Citibank N.A. were lowered to A3 and Prime-2 from A1 and Prime-1, respectively. Moody’s also downgraded the bank’s standalone credit assessment to D+/baa3 from C-/baa1. The outlook on the standalone credit assessment and the ratings of Citi’s operating subsidiaries are stable, while that on the senior debt and subordinated debt ratings of (or guaranteed by) the parent holding company is negative.
Citi’s ratings benefit from three notches of uplift from the standalone credit assessment at the subsidiary bank level, and from two notches of uplift at the holding company level, reflecting Moody’s assumption of a very high likelihood of government support for bondholders or other creditors in the event such support was required to prevent a default.
Citi is in the third group of firms with significant global capital markets activities. This position reflects i) the bank’s very high commitment to the capital markets; ii) the bank’s historically high earnings volatility and the problems Citi experienced during the crisis in terms of risk management and controls; and iii) the challenges of instilling a risk culture that results in low volatility, considering Citi’s commitment to the capital markets business and the pressure to return capital to shareholders. Partly mitigating these factors are (i) Citi’s sizable “shock absorbers” in the form of earnings from other, more stable businesses, although this benefit is somewhat less than it is for banks with a dominant domestic franchise. Other mitigating factors are the bank’s (ii) strong liquidity; (iii) sound capital; and (iv) the visible progress Citi has made in rebuilding its corporate governance and risk management structure.
The stable outlook (on Citi’s standalone credit assessment and its bank-level ratings) reflects the view that these risk factors have now been fully incorporated into the bank’s ratings. Upward rating pressure would emerge if Moody’s felt that Citi’s improved risk management structure had traction throughout the bank’s large and complex global network. Signals of traction would include a superior comparative performance in adverse market conditions. Other indicators would be conservative capital management and maintenance of a prudent liquidity profile. Upward rating pressure would also emerge if Citi were successful in gaining market share, in a controlled manner, in its global branch banking business. Any indications of control failures, a marked increase in risk appetite or deterioration in capital levels would lead to downward rating pressure.
The negative outlook on the holding company ratings reflects Moody’s view that government support for US bank holding company creditors is becoming less certain and less predictable, given the evolving attitude of US authorities to the resolution of large financial institutions, whereas support for creditors of operating entities remains sufficiently likely and predictable to warrant stable outlooks.
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CREDIT AGRICOLE SA
Credit Agricole SA’s (CASA) long-term debt and deposit ratings were downgraded by two notches, to A2 from Aa3. The bank’s Prime-1 short-term rating was affirmed. The standalone credit assessment was lowered by three notches, to D/ba2 from C-/baa2, and the adjusted baseline credit assessment — incorporating cooperative support from Groupe Credit Agricole (GCA) — to baa2 from a3. The outlook on both the standalone credit assessments and the long-term debt and deposit ratings is negative.
The bank’s senior debt and deposit ratings are rated A2 and incorporate three notches of uplift from government support assumptions.
CASA’s dated subordinated and junior subordinated debt ratings were downgraded to Baa3 and Ba1(hyb), respectively (one and two notches below its baa2 adjusted BCA). The downgrade reflects the removal of government support assumptions from the dated subordinated debt instruments. In Moody’s view, government support in many European countries, including France, is no longer sufficiently predictable or reliable to warrant incorporating government support-driven uplift into these debt ratings. The ratings on preference shares were downgraded by two notches, to Ba2(hyb), and continue to be positioned three notches below the baseline credit assessment.
The lowering of the adjusted baseline credit assessment to baa2 places CASA in the second group of firms with significant global capital market activities. This position reflects (i) the risks to CASA from its significant exposure to the Greek economy, particularly in view of the EUR4.6 billion of financing currently extended to its local subsidiary, Emporiki (Caa2, E/caa3 negative); and (ii) the bank’s greater dependence compared to many peers on short-term wholesale funding and a higher reliance on central bank eligible loans for its liquidity reserves, which Moody’s thus considers to be of lower intrinsic quality. Moody’s considers that capital markets activities, which have contributed about 8% of group revenue over the past three years, are a more marginal risk factor for CASA than for most other banks, even if their earnings remain volatile.
Moody’s also recognizes some mitigating factors: (i) GCA is primarily a retail and commercial bancassurance group whose activities generate stable revenue streams, which allows the group to withstand substantial shocks within its smaller, more volatile business lines; (ii) the group has taken strategic decisions to reduce its riskier activities and has invested in improving its risk management; and (iii) group capital resources have been increased, and display a good level of resistance under Moody’s stress tests.?
The negative outlook on the standalone credit assessment and long-term ratings recognizes that the balance of risks lies to the downside, given the increased probability Moody’s attaches to a potential exit of Greece from the euro area. Although such an event would likely be financially manageable for the group, it would nonetheless be very significant. An increase in the likelihood of a Greek exit could result in further downward rating pressure. ?
Given the negative outlook on long-term ratings and the BFSR, the probability of an upgrade is low for either rating. The outlook could revert to stable if the risks associated with a Greek exit from the euro area subside significantly, such that CASA’s standalone credit strength stabilizes.
Downward pressure on the ratings could result from (i) an increase in the risk of a Greek exit from the euro area; (ii) further deterioration in funding conditions; (iii) an aggressive recommitment to the capital markets business, as evidenced through greater balance sheet usage or market risk appetite; (iv) a weakening in the availability of cooperative support mechanisms; and/or (v) a marked weakening in the capacity or willingness of the French government to provide support for the benefit of creditors.
CREDIT AGRICOLE CORPORATE AND INVESTMENT BANK (CACIB)
CACIB’s long-term debt and deposit ratings were downgraded by two notches, to A2 from Aa3, in line with those of CASA. The Prime-1 short-term rating was affirmed. The standalone credit assessment was lowered by one notch, to D-/ba3 from D/ba2, and the adjusted baseline credit assessment — incorporating cooperative support from GCA — to baa2 from a3. The lowering of CACIB’s standalone credit assessment reflects principally the wholesale bias of CACIB, and hence its exposure to both capital markets and funding constraints, as evidenced by its current deleveraging program. The outlook on the standalone credit assessment is stable and that on the long-term debt and deposit ratings is negative. The downgrade in the long-term rating principally reflects the decline in the creditworthiness of GCA, which Moody’s expects to support CACIB in the event of need.
LE CREDIT LYONNAIS SA (LCL)
LCL’s long-term debt and deposit ratings were downgraded by two notches, to A2 from Aa3, in line with those of CASA. The Prime-1 short-term rating was affirmed. The standalone credit assessment was lowered by one notch, to C/a3 from C+/a2. The outlook on the standalone credit assessment is stable and that on the long-term debt and deposit is negative. The lowering of LCL’s standalone credit assessment reflects the more difficult operating environment in which LCL operates, and which is expected to modestly impact profitability and asset quality going forward. The downgrade of the long-term debt and deposit ratings for the most part reflects the decline in the creditworthiness of GCA, which Moody’s expects to support LCL in the event of need.
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CREDIT SUISSE
Credit Suisse AG’s deposit and senior debt ratings were downgraded to A1 from Aa1 and the bank’s Prime-1 short-term rating was affirmed. The bank’s standalone credit assessment was downgraded to C-/baa1 from B/aa3. The provisional senior debt ratings of the bank’s parent holding company, Credit Suisse Group AG, were downgraded to (P)A2 from (P)Aa2 and its provisional short-term rating was affirmed at (P)Prime-1. The outlook on all the ratings is stable.
Credit Suisse’s deposit and senior debt ratings benefit from three notches of uplift from the bank’s standalone credit assessment, reflecting Moody’s assumptions about a very high likelihood of support from the Swiss government for senior bondholders and other senior creditors in the event that such support was required to prevent a default.
On the other hand, Credit Suisse’s subordinated debt ratings (at Baa2 for Credit Suisse AG) are now notched off the bank’s standalone credit assessment, following the removal of the assumption of government support for this class of debt at Swiss banks. Moody’s views government support for the subordinated debt of Swiss banks as no longer sufficiently predictable or reliable to warrant incorporating any related uplift into its ratings.
The lowering of the standalone credit assessment to baa1 positions Credit Suisse in the second group of firms with significant global capital markets activities. This position reflects (i) a relatively high proportion of revenues and earnings from, and a clear commitment to, the global capital markets business; (ii) the large absolute size of the bank’s wholesale funding requirements; and (iii) relatively high historical earnings volatility. These factors are partly mitigated by (i) the stable stream of earnings from the bank’s wealth management and Swiss banking businesses; (ii) a highly pro-active approach to risk management; (iii) a sound structural liquidity profile and strong liquidity risk management; (iv) an improving capital position that is expected to result in lower leverage and capital ratios above the average for the bank’s peers; and (v) resilience to the weak operating environment in Europe, given low exposures to peripheral Europe and Switzerland’s perceived safe-haven status among investors.
The stable outlook on Credit Suisse’s ratings reflects the view that capital markets-related risk factors have now been fully incorporated into the bank’s ratings. Given the bank’s high ratings compared with those of most of its global capital markets peers, Moody’s does not expect significant upward pressure on the bank’s ratings absent a significant reduction in the bank’s reliance on earnings from its capital markets business. Any indications of control failures, a marked increase in risk appetite, a significant decline in the Swiss economy or deterioration in capital levels would lead to downward pressure on the ratings.
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DEUTSCHE BANK AG
Deutsche Bank AG’s long-term deposit ratings were downgraded to A2 from Aa3. The downgrade resulted from the lowering of Deutsche Bank’s standalone credit assessment to C-/baa2 from C+/a2. The outlook on all the ratings is stable. All the bank’s Prime-1 short-term ratings were affirmed. This rating action is consistent with Moody’s 15 February guidance and concludes a review for downgrade undertaken as part of an industry review of global investment banks.
Deutsche Bank AG’s debt and deposit ratings benefit from three notches of uplift from the standalone credit assessment, reflecting Moody’s assumptions about a very high likelihood of support from the German government for senior bondholders in the event such support was required to prevent a default.
The lowering of the standalone credit assessment to baa2 positions Deutsche Bank in the second group of firms with significant global capital markets activities. The position in the second group reflects Deutsche Bank’s (i) very large capital markets business (representing 45% of firm-wide revenues in 2011) and unwavering commitment to these businesses; (ii) relatively high level of secured and unsecured wholesale funding within the overall balance sheet; (iii) balance sheet leverage that is higher than the industry average; and (iv) its vulnerabilities to weaknesses in the euro area. These factors are partly mitigated by Deutsche Bank’s (i) more stable earnings from private clients, asset management and global transaction banking; (ii) an acceptable structural liquidity position and strengthened liquidity pool; and (iii) adequate capital levels relative to Moody’s stress assumptions on the bank’s loan book.
The expectation that these risk factors have been fully incorporated into the current standalone rating underlies the stable outlook on the bank’s BFSR. However, any indications of control failures, a marked increase in risk appetite, or a willingness to increase leverage could lead to downward pressure on the ratings. Upward rating pressure could develop if Deutsche Bank were to scale back its ambitions in capital markets businesses (which Moody’s considers unlikely), or if more predictable business lines become a much larger portion of the earnings mix.
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GOLDMAN SACHS
The Goldman Sachs Group, Inc.’s senior unsecured debt ratings and short-term ratings were downgraded to A3/Prime-2 from A1/Prime-1 and the long-term deposit ratings of Goldman Sachs Bank USA to A2 from Aa3. The Goldman Sachs Bank USA’s Prime-1 short-term rating was affirmed. Moody’s also downgraded Goldman Sachs’ standalone credit assessment, to C-/baa1 from B-/a1. The outlook on the standalone credit assessment and the ratings of Goldman Sachs’ operating subsidiaries is stable, while that on the senior debt and subordinated debt ratings of (or guaranteed by) the parent holding company is negative.
Goldman Sachs’ ratings benefit from two notches of uplift from the standalone credit assessment at the subsidiary bank level and at the holding company, reflecting Moody’s assumptions about a high likelihood of support from the US government for bondholders or other creditors in the event such support was required to prevent a default.
The lowering of the standalone credit assessment to baa1 positions Goldman Sachs in the second group of firms with significant global capital markets activities. The position in the second group reflects Goldman Sachs’ (i) clear commitment to the global capital markets business; (ii) its lack of significant earnings from other more stable businesses; and (iii) the large absolute size of its wholesale funding requirements. These factors are partly mitigated by (i) the firm’s superior track record of risk management and comprehensive risk controls; (ii) moderate historical earnings volatility compared with that of many of its peers; (iii) low leverage; and (iv) a large positive structural liquidity position.
The stable outlook on Goldman Sachs’ standalone credit assessment and the ratings of its operating subsidiaries reflects the view that the risk factors related to capital markets activities are now fully incorporated into the bank’s ratings. Moody’s does not expect significant upward pressure on the ratings, absent a significant reduction in the firm’s reliance on earnings from its capital markets business. Any indications of control failures, a marked increase in risk appetite or deterioration in leverage or other capital metrics would lead to downward pressure on the ratings.
The negative outlook on the parent holding company reflects Moody’s view that government support for US bank holding company creditors is becoming less certain and less predictable, given the evolving attitude of US authorities to the resolution of large financial institutions, whereas support for creditors of operating entities remains sufficiently likely and predictable to warrant stable outlooks.
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HSBC
HSBC Holdings’ senior debt rating was downgraded to Aa3 from Aa2. The provisional short-term rating was affirmed at (P)Prime-1. Moody’s considers the intrinsic standalone financial strength of the consolidated group as equivalent to a1, one notch lower than previously. The group benefits from two notches of uplift from government support assumptions, and the rating of HSBC Holdings is notched down by one notch for the structural subordination of the holding company. The outlook on the Aa3 long-term debt rating is negative, reflecting the view that government support for large UK banks may be lowered over the medium term.
The downgrade of HSBC Holdings’ ratings positions the group in the first group of firms with global capital market activities, that is, with baseline credit assessments of a3 and above. This position reflects (i) HSBC’s moderately large capital markets operation, which emphasizes plain vanilla businesses (Moody’s estimates that the capital market activities within Global Banking & Markets represent 10%–15% of the group’s total revenues); and (ii) interconnectedness with other, often less highly rated, financial institutions, given the size and presence of the group and its role in the interbank and repo market.
Despite the downgrade, Moody’s still views HSBC as one of the strongest banking groups globally. This view is supported by (i) low historical earnings volatility across the group due to very strong geographic diversification, which has enabled the group to absorb even large losses in certain businesses; and (ii) a conservative funding profile based on a strong global retail deposit base and a strict liquidity framework at each subsidiary.
The subordinated and junior capital instruments of HSBC Holdings have been downgraded by two notches, as they are notched down from the standalone intrinsic strength of the group, but now also incorporate one notch for the structural subordination of the holding company.
HSBC BANK
HSBC Bank’s senior debt and deposit ratings were downgraded by one notch, to Aa3 from Aa2, and the bank’s standalone ratings to C/a3 from C+/a2. The Prime-1 short-term rating was affirmed. The senior debt and deposit ratings of HSBC Bank, which represents the group’s European operations, benefit from a very high level of support from the consolidated HSBC group, which has an intrinsic financial strength of a1 (two notches of uplift), and from very high government support assumptions (one notch of uplift). The outlook on the standalone rating is stable, and that on the senior debt and deposit ratings is negative, reflecting the view that government support for large UK banks may be lowered over the medium term.
The downgrade reflects the fact that as one of four hubs within the HSBC group for capital market activities, HSBC Bank has a relatively high proportion of such activities, which can increase the volatility of its earnings. The downgrade also incorporates the fact that the bank operates in tougher operating environments in the UK and Europe.
Offsetting these risks, HSBC Bank benefits from a strong franchise in UK retail and commercial banking, good capitalization, a strong liquidity and funding profile and a conservative risk culture.
Upward pressure on the standalone ratings over the medium term could result from a further reduction in the bank’s ABS exposures and a decreased reliance on the more volatile capital markets earnings streams.
Deterioration in financial performance, a further weakening of the capital base and/or a significant decline in asset quality that places stress on the capital base could lead to downward pressure on the standalone rating.
The subordinated and junior capital instruments of HSBC Bank have been confirmed at their current level, as Moody’s is notching them down from the adjusted baseline credit assessment, which remains at a1, to recognize the expectation of a very high level of group support for this entity, in line with other group entities.
HSBC FRANCE
HSBC France’s bank financial strength rating was downgraded to C- from C, equivalent to a baseline credit assessment of baa2, and its long-term rating to A1 from Aa3. The short-term ratings were affirmed at Prime-1. The rating outlook is stable.
The downgrade of HSBC France’s standalone bank financial strength rating reflects Moody’s expectation of further pressure on the bank’s profitability in the current environment, and also incorporates the challenges facing institutions with large capital markets activities.
HSBC France derives a significant proportion of its earnings from its global banking and markets activities, particularly from its rates business (government bond trading). This reflects HSBC France’s role as a hub for all euro area sovereign trading of the HSBC group, and renders the bottom-line profitability at the HSBC France level inherently more volatile. Evidence of this volatility are the market losses it took in Q4 2011 on its euro area sovereign exposures to France and Italy, which resulted in a 70% drop in net profitability at fiscal year-end 2011.
The downgrade of the bank’s standalone credit assessment reflects Moody’s expectation that the continued challenges facing sovereigns in the euro area will likely continue to pressure the performance of the rates activities, the main contributor to the bank’s bottom-line profitability in recent years.
Set against these weaknesses, the bank’s standalone financial strength is supported by an adequate level of capitalization and strong liquidity positioning. HSBC France’s bank financial strength rating also reflects the tangible benefits of being highly integrated within the HSBC group, which has a global reach, and of its role as an important hub for the group’s global banking and markets activities.
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JP MORGAN CHASE
JP Morgan Chase & Co.’s senior long-term debt was downgraded to A2 from Aa3. At the bank level, JP Morgan Chase Bank’s long-term deposit and debt ratings were downgraded to Aa3 from Aa1. All Prime-1 short-term ratings were affirmed. The downgrade resulted from the lowering of JP Morgan’s standalone credit assessment to C/a3 from B/aa3. The outlook on the standalone credit assessment and the ratings of JP Morgan’s operating subsidiaries is stable, while that on the senior debt and subordinated debt ratings of (or guaranteed by) the parent holding company is negative.
JP Morgan’s ratings benefit from three notches of uplift from the standalone credit assessment at the bank level, and from two notches of uplift at the holding company, reflecting Moody’s assumptions about a very high likelihood of support from the US government for bondholders or other creditors in the event such support was required to prevent a default.
The negative outlook on the parent holding company reflects Moody’s view that government support for US bank holding company creditors is becoming less certain and less predictable, given the evolving attitude of US authorities to the resolution of large financial institutions, whereas support for creditors of operating entities remains sufficiently likely and predictable to warrant stable outlooks.
The lowering of the standalone credit assessment to a3 positions JP Morgan in the first group of firms with significant global capital market activities. This position reflects the risks related to JP Morgan’s (i) very large capital markets business (representing 26% of reported firm-wide revenues in 2011); (ii) relatively high absolute level of secured and unsecured wholesale funding within the overall balance sheet; and (iii) the recent control failure within its Chief Investment Office (CIO), which has tarnished JP Morgan’s otherwise strong track record of risk management. These factors are mitigated by (i) JP Morgan’s diversified and sustainable earnings streams from its five other lines of business; (ii) relatively low earnings volatility compared with the peer group; (iii) good structural liquidity and large liquidity pool; (iv) capital levels that are solid and resilient under Moody’s stress tests; and (iv) leverage that is below the industry median.
JP Morgan’s recently announced loss within the CIO was an important factor in the downgrade of the standalone credit profile. It illustrates the challenges of monitoring and managing risk in a complex global organization — and highlights the opacity of such risks. The firm has substantial earnings and liquidity, which affords it the time to work out of the positions. Management is also acting aggressively to stem the losses and has already added new controls to the CIO.
These risk factors have been fully incorporated into the current standalone assessment. Since JP Morgan is positioned in the first group of firms with global capital markets operations, upward pressure on the rating is unlikely, absent a material shrinking and de-risking of the investment bank, which Moody’s does not anticipate. Any further control failures, a marked increase in risk appetite or a willingness to increase leverage could lead to downward pressure on the ratings.
++++
MORGAN STANLEY
Morgan Stanley’s senior unsecured long-term debt ratings were downgraded to Baa1 from A2 and the long-term deposit and issuer ratings of Morgan Stanley Bank, N.A. were downgraded to A3 from A1. The short-term ratings of both firms were lowered to Prime-2 from Prime-1. Moody’s also downgraded Morgan Stanley’s standalone credit assessment, to D+/baa3 from C/a3. The outlook on the standalone credit assessment and the ratings of Morgan Stanley’s operating subsidiaries is stable, while that on the senior debt and subordinated debt ratings of (or guaranteed by) the parent holding company is negative.
Morgan Stanley’s ratings benefit from three notches of uplift due to external support assumptions. This includes one notch of uplift from its largest shareholder, Mitsubishi UFJ Financial Group (MUFG, deposits Aa3, standalone credit assessment at C/a3 at Bank of Tokyo-Mitsubishi UFJ, Ltd), and two notches of uplift owing to Moody’s belief that there is a high likelihood that Morgan Stanley, as a systemically important financial institution, would receive support from the US government in the event such support was required to prevent a default. The one notch of uplift reflecting potential support from MUFG is the reason the downgrade was less than the guidance Moody’s provided on 15 February.
The lowering of the standalone credit assessment to baa3 positions Morgan Stanley in the third group of firms with significant global capital markets activities. This position reflects (i) the firm’s commitment to the global capital market business, on which it relies heavily for earnings; (ii) its historically high level of earnings volatility; and (iii) the problems in risk management and controls the firm suffered during the crisis. Partly mitigating these factors are (i) the firm’s gradually increasing “shock absorbers” in the form of earnings from other more stable businesses (albeit still below that of most peers); (ii) its reduced risk appetite, improved liquidity profile and stronger capital position; and (iii) enhancements to risk management, internal processes and controls.
The stable outlook on Morgan Stanley’s standalone credit assessment and the ratings of its operating subsidiaries reflects the view that the capital markets-related risk factors have now been fully incorporated into the ratings. Moody’s does not expect significant upward pressure on the firm’s ratings. Any indications of control failures, a marked increase in risk appetite or deterioration in leverage or other capital metrics would lead to downward pressure on the ratings.
The negative outlook on the parent holding company reflects Moody’s view that government support for US bank holding company creditors is becoming less certain and less predictable, given the evolving attitude of US authorities to the resolution of large financial institutions, whereas support for creditors of operating entities remains sufficiently likely and predictable to warrant stable outlooks.
++++
ROYAL BANK OF CANADA
Royal Bank of Canada (RBC)’s long-term deposits were downgraded to Aa3 from Aa1. RBC’s standalone credit assessment was lowered to C+/a2 from B/aa3. The long term debt and deposit ratings incorporate two notches of uplift from government support assumptions, reflecting Moody’s assessment of a very high probability of support from the Canadian government. Moody’s has also attached a hybrid (hyb) indicator to the junior subordinated debt of RBC. All Prime-1 short-term ratings were affirmed. The outlook on all the ratings is stable.
The a2 standalone credit assessment places RBC in the first group of firms with significant global capital market activities. This position reflects: (i) RBC’s significant commitment to global investment banking activities (C$5.9 billion in revenues representing 22% of firm-wide revenues in 2011 on a CGAAP basis); (ii) management’s commitment to growing its position, particularly in the US, acknowledging that the contribution to RBC of capital markets activities may decline if other lines of business grow at a faster rate; (iii) the high degree of interconnectedness or concentration risks inherent to capital markets activities; and (iv) the view that global capital markets activities expose RBC to risks that could result in comparatively rapid deterioration in its creditworthiness.
These factors are mitigated by: (i) the fact that RBC is a strong and diversified universal bank with sustainable leading market shares across many retail products and services in its home market; (ii) RBC has the lowest earnings volatility in the global investment banking peer group, which is evidence of the stability of its franchises, its sound risk management infrastructure and embedded risk culture; (iii) a business mix within capital markets that is more heavily weighted toward client-driven primary origination and advisory businesses; and (iv) a large core deposit base and strong capital levels.
The stable outlook on RBC’s ratings reflects the view that the capital markets-related risk factors have now been fully incorporated into the ratings. RBC is very highly rated and upward pressure on the rating is not currently anticipated, however management action signaling a change in direction and scaling-down of the commitment to the capital markets business would further stabilize the standalone credit assessment.
Any indications of control failures, a change in risk appetite, a reduced commitment to strong capital and liquidity, or management increasing its commitment to the capital markets business, either organically over time or through a capital markets business acquisition, could lead to downward pressure on the ratings.
++++
ROYAL BANK OF SCOTLAND
Royal Bank of Scotland plc’s (RBS) long-term deposit and debt ratings were downgraded to A3 from A2, and the bank’s Prime-1 short-term rating was downgraded to Prime-2. The bank’s standalone credit assessment was lowered to D+/baa3 from C-/baa2. The senior debt and deposit ratings benefit from three notches of uplift from the standalone rating, reflecting Moody’s expectation of a very high probability of government support for the bank. The ratings of the holding company, Royal Bank of Scotland Group plc, were downgraded to Baa1/ P-2 from A3/P-2.The outlook on the D+/baa3 standalone ratings is stable, whereas the outlook on the A3 long-term deposit rating is negative, reflecting the view that government support for large UK banks may be lowered in the medium-term.
The downgrade of the standalone credit assessment to baa3 positions RBS in the third group of firms with significant capital market activities, with baseline credit assessments of baa3 and below. This position reflects (i) high historical earnings volatility across the bank; (ii) relatively large capital markets business (expected to stabilize at around 20% of revenues) even after recent de-risking and exiting of certain business lines; (iv) further potential earnings volatility as a result of large loan books in Ireland; and (v) ongoing challenges of winding down non-core assets. These factors are somewhat mitigated by (i) strong underlying earnings in non-investment banking activities; (ii) a large and high-quality liquidity buffer relative to short-term liabilities; (iii) the strong track record of the current management team in de-risking and restructuring the group; and (iv) sufficient long-term capital to meet short-term funding vulnerabilities, reflected in a net cash capital surplus according to Moody’s metrics.
The stable outlook on RBS’ standalone ratings reflects the view that the capital markets-related risk factors have now been fully incorporated into the bank’s ratings. Given the bank’s strong retail and banking franchise and its moderated risk appetite for capital markets activities, if the more immediate risks in the operating environment in the UK and Europe were to recede and RBS were to return to a stable earnings profile, there could be upward pressure on the bank’s ratings. On the other hand, any indications of control failures, a marked increase in risk appetite or a deterioration in capital levels could lead to downward pressure on the rating.
Moody’s took a variety of actions on RBS’ May-Pay securities. These are the securities on which RBS omitted coupons due to European Commission restrictions following the receipt of state aid over the period 30 April 2010 to 30 April 2012. On 4 May 2012 RBS announced its intention to resume dividend payments on certain May-Pay instruments and Moody’s now considers that the risks for these instruments are in line with the Must Pay instruments. The ratings of these instruments have now all been moved so that they are in line with the Must Pay securities, which are rated in line with hybrid notching guidelines. Click on the following link for a list of the affected May-Pay securities: http://www.moodys.com/viewresearchdoc.aspx?docid=PBC_143289.
RBS NV
The ratings of RBS NV have been moved to be aligned with those of RBS plc, reflecting the ongoing process of transfer of assets and liabilities from RBS NV to RBS plc, and the explicit commitment by RBS plc to support RBS NV. The senior debt and deposit and issuer ratings have been downgraded to A3 from A2. The short-term rating was downgraded to Prime-2 from Prime-1. And the standalone credit assessment has been raised to D+/ baa3 from D/ ba2, in line with RBS plc. The outlook on the standalone rating is stable and that on the senior debt rating is negative, in line with RBS. The dated subordinated debt instruments have been downgraded to Ba1 from A3, in line with RBS plc, while assumptions of support from the Dutch government are no longer being incorporated into these instruments. The ratings of RBS NV will continue to move in line with those of RBS plc.
ULSTER BANK LIMITED AND ULSTER BANK IRELAND LIMITED
The long-term bank deposit ratings of Ulster Bank Limited (UBL) and Ulster Bank Ireland Limited (UBIL) have been downgraded to Baa2 from Baa1, the long-term issuer rating of UBL to Baa2 from Baa1, the (P) senior unsecured debt rating of UBIL to (P)Baa2 from (P)Baa1 and the dated subordinated rating of UBIL to Ba1 from Baa3. This follows the downgrade of the ratings of its parent, RBS plc, to A3/P-2 from A2/P-1. The outlook on the ratings of UBL and UBIL is negative, in line with the outlook on the senior ratings of RBS and that on the standalone ratings of UBL and UBIL. There is no impact on the D-/ba3 standalone credit assessment of either UBL or UBIL or on the negative outlooks that continue to reflect the significant uncertainty about the speed and magnitude of further asset quality deterioration on Ulster Bank’s asset quality. The ratings continue to reflect the incorporation of a very high level of parental support into the ratings of both UBL (incorporated in Northern Ireland) and UBIL (incorporated in Ireland). This is based on Moody’s assessment that Ulster Bank Group (which includes both UBL and UBIL) is a core subsidiary of Royal Bank of Scotland Group (RBS Group) and is likely to remain so. Ulster Bank Group (the consolidated entity) is an integral part of RBS Group’s strategy and this has been evidenced by the ongoing high levels of support through the provision of capital and funding support. Moody’s expects this high commitment to continue and therefore have maintained a high level of parental support in the supported ratings of UBL and UBIL.
++++
SOCIETE GENERALE
Societe Generale’s (SocGen) long-term debt and deposit ratings were downgraded by one notch, to A2 from A1. The Prime-1 short-term rating was affirmed. The standalone credit assessment was also lowered by one notch, to C-/baa2 from C-/baa1. The outlook on both the standalone credit assessment and long-term debt and deposit ratings is stable.
Senior debt and deposit ratings are rated A2 and incorporate three notches of uplift from government support assumptions. SocGen’s dated subordinated and junior subordinated debt ratings were downgraded to Baa3 and Ba1(hyb), respectively (one and two notches below its baa2 standalone credit assessment). The downgrades reflect the removal of government support assumptions from the dated subordinated debt instruments. In Moody’s view, government support in many European countries, including France, is no longer sufficiently predictable and reliable to warrant incorporating government-support-driven uplift into these debt ratings. Ratings on preference shares were downgraded by one notch, to Ba2(hyb), and continue to be positioned three notches below the standalone credit assessment.
The lowering of the standalone credit assessment to baa2 places SocGen in the second group of firms with significant global capital market activities. This position reflects (i) the significant and relatively volatile nature of the bank’s capital markets business, which contributed 18% of revenues between 2009 and 2011; (ii) SocGen’s continued relative reliance on short-term wholesale funding and its smaller liquidity pool compared with some other banks; and (iii) challenges arising from the expected deterioration in macroeconomic conditions in western Europe, which will affect many of the countries in which SocGen operates.
These factors are somewhat mitigated by (i) SocGen’s good spread of generally solid businesses focused on retail and commercial banking, which provide more stable revenues and help ensure that the capital markets business does not dominate the group; (ii) the bank’s relatively small exposure to more problematic sovereign debt; (iii) diversification into central and eastern Europe, which brings a less correlated source of earnings; and (iv) improving trends in capital and liquidity, partly the consequence of a deleveraging program that is, however, still in progress.
The rating could be upgraded in the event of a material structural improvement in the bank’s funding and liquidity profile and a further reduction in the weight of capital markets-related activity within the group.
The rating could be downgraded in the event of (i) the re-emergence of deteriorating funding conditions; (ii) risk management failures or material unexpected losses, for example in the capital markets business; (iii) worsening macroeconomic conditions; (iv) a reduced probability of meeting its capitalization target of a 9-9.5% Core Tier 1 ratio under Basel III by end-2013; and (v) a marked weakening in the capacity or willingness of the French government to provide support to the benefit of creditors.
++++
UBS
UBS AG’s deposit and senior debt ratings were downgraded to A2 from Aa3 and the bank’s Prime-1 short-term rating was confirmed. The bank’s standalone credit assessment was downgraded to C-/baa2 from C/a3. The outlook on all the ratings is stable.
UBS’s deposit and senior debt ratings benefit from three notches of uplift from the bank’s standalone credit assessment, reflecting Moody’s assumptions about a very high likelihood of support from the Swiss government for senior bondholders and other senior creditors in the event such support was required to prevent a default.
On the other hand, UBS’s subordinated debt ratings (at Baa3) are now notched off the bank’s standalone credit assessment following the removal of the assumption of government support for this class of debt at Swiss banks. Moody’s views government support for the subordinated debt of Swiss banks as no longer sufficiently predictable or reliable to warrant incorporating uplift into its ratings.
The lowering of the standalone credit assessment to baa2 positions UBS in the second group of firms with significant global capital markets activities. This position reflects (i) the bank’s high historical earnings volatility; (ii) its relatively large capital markets business; and (iii) the problems in risk management and controls from which the bank suffered during the crisis. Partly mitigating these factors are (i) the bank’s reduced ambition in investment banking; (ii) its significant and stable earnings from non-investment banking activities; (iii) positive structural liquidity and a large liquidity reserve; (iv) an improving capital position and capital targets well above peers; (v) ongoing enhancements to corporate governance, risk management and controls; and (vi) resilience to the weak operating environment in Europe given low exposures to peripheral Europe and Switzerland’s perceived safe-haven status among investors.
The stable outlook on UBS’s ratings reflects the view that capital markets-related risk factors have now been fully incorporated into the bank’s ratings. Moody’s does not expect significant upward pressure on the bank’s ratings absent a significant reduction in the bank’s reliance on earnings from its capital markets business. Any indications of control failures, a marked increase in risk appetite, a significant decline in the Swiss economy or a deterioration in capital levels or targets would put downward pressure on the ratings
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Everyones thoughts on how this affects the metals….. Do tell. More break, or rally?
May the Silver Liberation Army continue to strike fear into their hearts… drive the stake further into the heart of the Vampire Squid. Keep stackin!!!!
Difficult to say how bank ratings will affect PM prices directly in short term. That being said, I think it will definately shake the foundations enough to make it into the MSM. ( already big news on Canadian networks) When that happens, it’s all about the perception and confidence of the masses.
We sure live in interesting times
Metals are manipulated so this will only be another excuse to smash gold & silver prices down. Keep stacking!
Pressure on this 26 handle floor is gonna be a good tell tale sign. Hope it breaches.
CNN is too busy reporting about some dude that bit a police dog that was attacking him
Bloomberg was all over it for about 5 minutes…..mostly the euro banks! twitter outage is a bigger story.
Cramer (mad money) forgot to take his lithium so hes just chalkin the selloff up to fear.
Black Friday? The PPT will be busy, making sure the rich sheep don’t notice.
We’ll hear about liquidations to cover margin calls, flight to cash, blah blah blah.
CNN is too busy reporting about some dude that bit a police dog that was attacking him
Bloomberg was all over it for about 5 minutes…..mostly the euro banks! twitter outage is a bigger story.
Cramer (mad money) forgot to take his lithium so hes just chalkin the selloff up to fear. He says their ratings have been “repositioned”
All The Banks Are Up In The Afterhours—They Probably Priced This News In Before The Market Close—MS Was Actually Not Downgraded As Much As Expected. Metals shouldn’t be affected any more than from normal manipulation
JPM
35.51
(-2.58%)
After Hours: 36.12
+0.61
(1.72%)
BAC
7.82
(-3.93%)
After Hours: 7.96
+0.14
(1.79%
MS
13.96
(-1.69%)
After Hours: 14.43
+0.47
(3.37%)
C
27.83
(-3.57%)
After Hours: 28.05
+0.22
(0.79%
GS
93.90
(-2.74%)
After Hours: 94.38
+0.48
(0.51%
Hey Eddie Troll How Low Is Silver Going?
Eddie 77 I don’t know exactly how this will affect metals in the short run but if the banks are as bad as they seem, then metals will gain some real attention. It seems that these rating downgrades have been constant and steady for well over a year while metals have continued their frantic gyrations independent of the rating downgrades.
As these banks continue to spiral into a black hole, foretelling some additional larger major failures, I think removing yourself from the paper market; removing yourself from these major banks, may force you to make an alternate choice as to the asset base that best protects your holdings. What IS interesting is that these 15 banks represent that nasty, shiny scum that floats on top of the stinking slimy septic tank settling pond of national and international banks .
In a strange way these 15 banks glow with the appearance of robust health that frequently imbues a body that has been carefully groomed by a top embalmer. These 15 refugees from the banking glue factory will get their comeuppance and will be taken down when the rest of the lowest eschelon of zombie banks crater in short order.
This will occur mostly likely by the end of the third fiscal quarter of 2012 in Europe or by year end in the US, despite the trillions that will be dialed into the banks to save them That printing might be enough to lift metals prices through a back wash effect of a FIAT tsunami. There will probably be a deflationary pause as these banks liquidate any asset; throw any grandmother over the rail, rape any client through outright client account theft ala MF Global so even phyzz won’t be safe during this liquidity bloodletting.
Due to the impending bank crash, much like the Lehman failure and then an inflationary surge afterwards, again, much like the Lehman halo effect in 2009 I do not doubt that precious metals will rebound in value as people seek safe harbor from banks and FIAT maybe even to seek an alternate currency if the Euro goes the way of the Dodo with the US Dollar soon to follow, like the last carrier pigeon aloft IMO
Attack me all ya want Jakedoosh. My argument is as relevant as yours. I have been “coined” just like you. So that means there are like minded folks out there. Troll my ass. You cant handle a good debate huh? Its all gotta be about silver to the moon huh. Ok ok I give in, after silver breaks some more, then some more, silver will go to the moon. You happy now, Jake? Eat a dick.
Expect a rapid and swift drop since a lot of stocks plus commodities will be sold off in rapid fashion for a few days. But don’t worry, Helicopter Ben is ready for take off should things get really bad.
Just realize when QE3 is unleashed deflation’s last push will have ended.
Jakedoosh? Eat a dick? <—This Is Debating? Please give us all your predictions—I want constant predictions—where is silver going?
Hey, im just a troll. What do I know.
I see the chalk didn’t work—didn’t you crawl through it and get some particles on your legs?…maybe it’s takes a while to take effect?—tell me– do you feel a little dizzy or sick to your stomach?
This sounds to me like a set-up. Why would one of their own downgrade their buddies banks? And why now?
I think the elite want to start to consolidate the powers with some phony plan to unite all banking and financial to give them complete control over the populace.
And of course you need a good scare to get the people to buy into the pre-made plan.
lol Jake, if the chalk didn’t work, it might be because it is “Made in China” and ”low poisonous.”
SB—Yeah—let’s see if that works—these trolls are just minor irritant. This is why people develop these sprays and other substances. I use additives in my lawn fertilizer to keep the grass molds from creating brown spots.
It’s just the cost of doing business in blogs.
Getting back to the banking downgrade issue—The dow futures are also up after-hours as well. +24 last I looked DOW FUTURES . It seems they bought into the selling at the close.
haha chalk. hahah. No valid points huh.. sorry for you.
Does anyone believe these rating agencies anymore? If they were truthful they would lower all their ratings to ‘D’.
Eddie 77;
Argyrion I personally believe that the Rockefeller family, the House of Rothschild and some other banking families have disinvested to the extent that when the global fiat Ponzi scheme ends, they will be in a position to fill the gap so to speak. They’re setting the likes of Jamie Dimon and others up as scape goats by allowing the likes of JP Morgan to fail. They know that the end of the global fiat Ponzi scheme, which they’ve originally set up and managed, is near and that we’ve gone pass the point of no return. In fact, don’t be surpised to discover at the end of the day that they’ve stolen the gold reserves of most countries: United States, Germany, The Netherlands, France, England, South Africa, et cetera. They’re going to push for a gold standard.
Argyrion—yes—There was a lot of discussion about whether the Fed would implement QE3 yesterday—I feel as you do here, that there really needs to be a manufactured crisis to bring them “kicking and screaming” into announcing a big stimulus program.
In 2008—we all know this happened. September is traditionally a lousy stock market month. They are meeting on Sept 13th. This is right before the election. I think it’s a good guess they announce then.
In the meantime, they usually signal this to the markets weeks in advance, for two reasons—maximum effect, and so that the banksters can position themselves properly. Also, because this is an election year, they’ll need to let it take effect so that it can buy votes for Obama.
Therefore, if I had to guess, I’d place the time frame for the leak of this QE3 announcement in the july 4-15th time frame. They then let the August meeting on Aug 1st, be the possible announcement date, if needed, if the economy really crashes, or let it go to Sept. 13th at the latest. This would provide plenty of time for their money printing to have the maximum effect.
Meanwhile, between now and July 4-15, we see more sell-off including the metals markets as I’ve been guessing back to the 26 area but bouncing and wiggling between 26 (maybe 25) and 28. But I really think there’s going to be a point soon where this manufactured crisis comes to a head only to see the Fed announce QE3.
How is it that my initial question ”
Everyones thoughts on how this affects the metals….. Do tell. More break, or rally?”
Funny….Silver gets smashed through the floor the same day the banks get their dicks slapped! Coincidence??
Jake don’t wast your time besides I left you a question before I left for work.
Jake says.. They will announce QE3 at the next meeting..or the next one..or the next one..
..or the next one..or the next one..
..or the next one..or the next one
..or the next one..or the next one.. ..
..or the next one..or the next one..
..or the next one..or the next one..
..or the next one..or the next one.. Nice outlook.
427—Are you referring to those 28,000 or so I counted on that smack down from 29? That was a few 30-minute candles I saw when the take down started—It’s really hard to assign contracts and track them—in fact, it’s impossible. On a very short term basis, you can look at a few 30 minute candles, for example, and count as long as you can verify that it all with a down candle. But it’s impossible to assign certain contracts to any one bankster.
All you can really do it say, “I count this many thousands being dumped into a market in a very short time frame”. Nothing but coordinated efforts on the part of banksters has this effect. Normal trading doesn’t involve these huge rug-pulls and bid drops without a totally colluded effort by a few banksters.
Eddie;
Eddie77 I personally don’t know if you’re a troll or not, but because we don’t do the downward manipulation of the silver price via the paper markets ourselves, it’s kind of strange that someone would ask us the question that you’ve asked. In my opinion the manipulators are trying hard to discredit us… if we say up, they push it down, and when we say down, they push it up. I am sure you get what I am trying to convey? To tell you the truth, we care more about the ability to buy and stack physical silver, than movements in the paper-manipulated price. lol I might have the cat completely by its tail, but that’s just my two cents.
Ok Jake:
Doc—Delete This Insect “Eddie77″ This thread doesn’t need him.
Ok, as much as I hate Moody’s and QE3 for being late on the scene, they have done 1 thing terrifically and that was wait until Bernanke and Co. made their decision. Moody’s played a little chess b/c they knew Bernanke was unlikely to unleash QE3 as the markets priced it in meaning they really priced it out and Bernanke will now have to implement QE3 much earlier than predicted possibly within 2 months and everyone here knows what that means to their holdings…. BA BA BA BAAA BOOOOOOOO YAAAAAAAAA
Silver Bullion, First off I appreciate you starting a meaningful conversation vs just labeling me a troll for my thoughts. Of course we are looking to stack, but to be able to stack the paper price controls what price you stack at. Right? So 427, I have not been trolling all day. I have simply been mentioning the fact that we have been moving downward for some time now. All of a sudden I’m getting beat on by dudes with no credible rebuttals. Just “Eddietroll” and thats it. Need I list my ideas of the day? ok..here..
Eddie77.. you disgust me. All I see is the contagion spreading to the good old US of A. After all isnt that how it started in The Euro Zone?? Dont worry Jake, everyone here can tell the idiots from the truly knowledgeable. The facts are there and this ignorasshole can try to spin the facts any way he wants, but in the end results have already come to pass in previous fallen empires. and I cut…
Eddie77 I think Your New Avatar Fits You—nuff said…delete this troll doc.
The metals didn’t fall on the ratings of the banks…. there is some confusion here. There is a 3 week trend of why metals have fallen on each of the last continuing claims report and I will be making a video that SilverDoc will post later on.
WOW you guys are like a gang! Delete my 1st amendment from your thread so all your thoughts are backed up by others. Fools. You need more injected ideas that you think, If you think. I disgust you huh. Dont worry Jake, your gang will protect you. Don’t worry lil guy.
Can someone tell me exactly what time Moody’s released this downgrade to the public… Much thanks.
Doc—Delete This Insect “Eddie77″ This thread doesn’t need him.
Eddie For Your Information— We’re a click—as labeled by some troll called “Got Goldies”. We’ve had trolls like you, “ILUVPMS” and “Queenbee”—they come and go—and you should go too.
You need to contribute to a thread. That means if you have disagreement, put up some evidence or references and provide your guess. Maybe you could enlighten us on your plan. Why are you waiting to buy?—Are you really a metals holder?—Are you a child?—No one comes into a thread and expects the floor unless he proves he can contribute to the crowd—buzz off.
I knew metals would be propped up in Asian trading… wish I made my video earlier…. anyways I expect the oversold markets to rebound in the coming weeks as worsening data continues to come out of Europe at an unprecedented clip. Greece will eventually leave the Euro and the EU when the Germans try to give them too much austerity… Keep in mind Syrzia was only 2.5% behind the leading New Democratic party and once they decide to trash the Euro there will be a flight of capital from Italy and Spain for fear of a conversion risk into other asset categories including US bonds, UK and German Banks, and of course our favorite Gold and Silver. I give this a 2 month time stamp. Keep watch.
I have contributed. Read it. They are valid and pertinent thoughts.
And its spelled “clique” you fool. Look it up.
ich1baN—It was very near 4:37 est. I was wondering the same thing-–they originally announced that it was going to be a news item “At The Bell”—But It was delayed, I thought, so that it would occur after the futures closed, But they decided to release it so that they could buy into it afterhours—MS rocketed 54 cents immediately once the news came in that their downgrade wasn’t as bad as some of the analysts predicted—all banks popped.
Eddie77;
Jake, debate my post then… Lets battle brain instead of insults.
Jake, debate my post then… Lets battle brain instead of insults. Man to man.
Im a Click!!!!
Why would you NOT use an engine to gain wealth to transfer to physical?
Eddie77 “Of course we are looking to stack, but to be able to stack the paper price controls what price you stack at. Right?”
I personally don’t allow the paper price to control at what price I stack at. I like to apply what they call dollar-cost-averaging. However, even if I did give more attention to the paper price, it wouldn’t make that big of a difference to me, because it would be difficult for me to say which way the price will go, especially over the short-term. This is due to blatant and illegal manipulation via paper.
Eddie—It occurred to me that you may be a plant rather than an animal—insecticides may not work on you—therefore for I’d Like You To Watch This Video—This Has Been Used Effectively On Pests Of Your Type:
You are using the engine of labor to gain to transfer to physical. They are using the engine of paper to transfer to physical. Same deal.
At least read the article before leaving your anti-silver rhetoric.
Silverbullion, I respect your cost averaging approach. It makes sense. You still make purchases off the spot paper price though. Each one hopefully being lower than the last to bring the average down. Still driven by paper.
All the name calling and arguing is just plain silly. Is it coincidental that so many of the gang here happen to be Christian? It’s that ol’ us-versus-them attitude.
I will.
Jake – I don’t think they will release QE3 until things start to really fall apart. Then the canary in the coal mine has run it course and any hints of deflation would end within a short period of time. At that point, count down to blast off for the metals and hard assets will begin.
Anyone trying to time the metals is now walking the razors edge.
Eddie77 The problem is that it is not an engine, but a Ponzi scheme, which we try to avoid as far as possible. Playing in their casino, where they make and break the rules as they like, 9 times out of 10 only get one’s fingers burned. Maybe their casino works for you, but I personally prefer not to gamble or to play their silly cat-and-mouse games of manipulation. Getting my 2-3 ounces of physical silver a month does it for me, and yes, some times I am able to get more, but those months I see as a bonus. Needless to say, I don’t have money for gambling.
MY ENGINE
1967 427 Fairlane 102.mpg
MY ENGINE,
Eddie this is a bad ass engine
Eddie77 “You are using the engine of labor to gain to transfer to physical. They are using the engine of paper to transfer to physical. Same deal.”
With all respect, it is not the same deal for me. There is in my opinion a huge difference between acquiring something through one’s labor, meaning you work for it in a way that’s morally acceptable, than to acquire it through participation in a Ponzi scheme, especially if it involves little or no work.
Nice, My engine is a 96ci w/ S&S .510 geared cams pushing it. 2-1 pipe to get all the TQ possible.
Bix Weir is a genius.
Powerball—That’s basically what I said and what others have said, so we’re in agreement. Many times in the past, the cFed has stepped in after the stock market has dropped considerably. I don’t recall a time when they’ve intervened when the Dow or S&P are at relatively high levels.
Eddie—Which post should we debate?—Didn’t you even look at my video?—That is a very effective way to kill pesky weeds that are growing inside a click.
427—Great cars
427… then why is he pushing it at 27. Why not tell folks to wait it out a bit?
Jake I am at work and it blocks youtube. Whats the jist?
Jake I am at work and it blocks youtube. Whats the gist?
Ag-nostic;
Ya a contrarian thinker, just like you, 427, hence you are a stacker.
eddie77—when you get home you can look at it.
Jake remind me not to piss you off. LOL
Ich1baN I like your time clock of 2 months. Europe is crumpling like a paper bag and even the new proposal of $750 billion euros ($1 trillion US) will buy maybe, at best, 2 months of time. The European bankers and political leaders just don’t know how to deal with these crises. They are one full generation removed from the bankers and political leaders whoknew something about currency and managed their own country’s banking and monetary systems Some prospered and some failed, like Greece. The only reason Greece lasted to this date is that they weaseled their way into the cheap money pool when the getting was good and spent themselves into utter bankruptcy.
I still think that it will take another $3-5 trillion to save the Union and that won’t be good for much more than 1 year or so. $3 trillion dialed into a $16 trillion economy is just not enough. We are spending about 10% or $1.5 trillion in deficit funding on a $15 trillion GDP. Europe is almost in a free fall so 18% of the Euro GDP in a zone that is moving backways just won’t help in the long pull. This is a completely disfunctional monetary system involving 17 completely disparate countries and it will fail, fall hard and we will get the massive backsplatter of the failure. Hence the reason for the 15 banks downgrades today. Moody’s is simply getting ahead of the curve so they don’t look like the same fools as they were when they rated the junky subprime mortgage tranches AAA we floated over the pond to Europe. IMO.
We are going to catch a really nasty walking pneumonia since we can print to oblivion. Europe will run their printing presses into the ground as Germany bids them Auf Weidershoen and lurches north to take up boarding rights with the northern tier. The rest of Europe will gack up huge hairballs then go fish belly white on the surface of the cess pool.
I’ll nip this shit in the but, BUY SILVER NOW! it’s in a dip and has been for over a year. ANYTHING BELOW $49.00 IS A DIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ag-nostic I agree with you in regards to “All the name calling and arguing is just plain silly”, but in my opinion “Is it coincidental that so many of the gang here happen to be Christian?” is uncalled for.
I am a Christian and Christianity is not a religion to me, but a way of life. Just because Agnostics claim that we cannot have true knowledge pertaining to the existence of God, doesn’t mean that the rest of us won’t have an “ol’ us-versus-them attitude”. Who are you to suggest that it is wrong of us to have an “ol’ us-versus-them attitude”? In other words, we stand on that which we deem to be a true knowledge of God and if that means we have to form a “clique”, then so be it. With all respect, you’re not my God, and yes, you should be thankful.
Yes. Anything below the all time high is a dip.
Jake, I want your debate, not someone elses. Speak up.
What is it SBSS?
Sirrawdog?
SBSSSprott Business Students’ Society
AcronymDefinitionSBSSSpace-Based Space SurveillanceSBSSStandard Base Supply SystemSBSSScience-Based Stockpile Stewardship (US nuclear weapons’ maintenance & certification)SBSSSmall Business Source SystemSBSSSouth Bristol Speleological Society (UK)SBSSSmall Business Support ServicesSBSSState Board of Social Services (Colorado)SBSSSprott Business Students’ Society (Canada)SBSSStealth Bullet Shooting SocietySBSSShanghai Bureau of State SecuritySBSSSoftware-Based Secondary SystemSBSSSt Bernard State School (Gold Coast, Australia)
S ilver
Yes I think Chris Duane is getting ready for the loony bin
He says the same thing you do, you cab be roommates.
He stacks, you stack.
Eddie;
Vote for Silver 2012
http://www.silverdoctors.com/vote-for-silver-2012/
YA got me. This is goofy.
Chris has gotten way to full of him self
EDDIE
Dont start being a smart ass. You dont know it all. Even Chris Duane has many many good points, just this one is bad. You dont want to be full of yourself too, do ya? I ll back up any statement I made? Which one needs clarification?
Hay I don’t know I came home you all had a spat going. But the fingers were pointing at you telling you to back up you statements. In stead of backing statements up you through a bunch of shit out, shit on and everything but facts.
Not at all. I just fell attacked from all sides. You telling me ”
See how that worked” i thought you were coming down on me too. Sorry.
No just short sweet and simple. “Make statement, if challenged back it up, or be a big man and just say I might have been wrong. We would not have 93 comment in this tread 80% bull shit, blocking proper transfer of information and education. And if your going to come into a site and fight with everybody that dosent help anything. I my self have only been on this site for a short time. However mostly everybody treats me with lots of love. I share most of the views of this sit and suport it as such. The Doc puts post up I may not agree with like the Chris Duane post I linked you to and I had heated debates over it. Some thought I was wrong, but nobody that mattered to me. I feel wording is important, see how I said “I feel” or “My opinion” “I could be wrong but I feel silver will drop to the $25s because da da da. Or, Silver is going to drop to the $25s and everybody should wate to buy. Witch statement is going to be challenged?
Well its more this punk JAke. All a sudden hes callin me a troll. then Im a roach and a weed and all kinda 4th grade insults. No facts tho.
427 June 22, 2012 at 1:31 AMEddie it all most likely started hear. You decided when it was pointed out to you that you were wrong instead of admitting it you took up a fighting stance. On top of that you decided to hook your cart to a jack ass “ILUVPMs” who only shows up commenting when silver gets a hard smack down and says I told you so, Im right, Im right, Put it this way The Doc hardly ever comments with in a post. He replied to your question, and then again because it was blatant that you all did not correctly read the article.
This does not mean we have the capability of sourcing 500 million ounces, or any quantity of silver to infinity.
Yes, supply has definitely tightened over the past few weeks, our suppliers are close to being totally out of several products, however others are adequately in supply currently. Again, these are retail products we are discussing here however.
-Doc
At least read the article before leaving your anti-silver rhetoric.
“A lot of these people tjhjink that publishing articles and talking about them all the time will help them with their investments. They need the feel good feedback from random articles. Personally, i think we are in for a VERY BIG CORRECTION as I’ve been stating all along. Oil below 80 is not a good thing. Silver could very well see 20 bucks if the market crashes again and there are signs of it going that way. The euro, could be responsible for another great depression that major CBs won’t be able to reinflate if it happens. Just some food for thought for those who don’t care about price.”
Listen Troll–why are you here?-–you never provide info that contributes to this site. All you do is tell us how right you were because of some previous silver price prediction.
Unless there are paper silver day-traders in here, I just don’t see the value of saying “like i said before—we’re in for a big sell off”–BS. It’s one thing to guess this with references and information that can be debated, but to turn this into short term price bantering is just trolling.
Why don’t you troll somewhere else. You’re getting no response here. I’m thinking of using some spray.
As For This EDDIE77, I Think This Chalk Might Do The Trick
Ditto 427.
M45 you havet seen anything yet! were have you been?
Hi! 427 took a few days of to recuperate, went up to Nova Scotia, Canada for a few days Metal Detecting. Had a ball. Also added a few silver coins to my stack.
Thats cool I have not been away on a trip in quit a wile. I brought you over to this tread to get you caught up on yesterdays games. Did you find the coins or buy?
When I go Metal Detecting I find them. LMAO but it cost me a little to go up there and find them so I guess you could say I paid away over spot. LMAO
It’s the fact that you brought them to the surface. To be seen by the lite of day once again. In other words you restorde there value back to man, It’s true treasure. Way to go.
I See The “Click” Is Here. I Was Just Going To Read What You Guys Were Going To Say, But You Stopped. What Coins?-–And How Do Get Away With Digging Up Some Guys Yard?—Dd he run you off his property? LOL!
I also—seriously—was wondering if they were Canadian silver?—I’m drinking beer and listening Eric of Course after some yard work—so, I thought you guys were going to have a good conversation—Hopefully we don’t see any trolls.
lol
SB is now here—Completing The “Click”. Got Pictures Of The Coins?
Ya Jake;
LMAO Man that was a lot of reading and nothing to do about the subject. LMAO and Jakedoosh it’s Clique not click. LMAO. By the way is he a Security Guard? seeing he was at work/. Lol
Only a half dozen where silver (Canadian) the rest where clad but it was the fun of digging them up and the good company that I was with.
But it looked like you guys had some fun also. I sure feel sorry for Eddie77 though. Lol
Jake I was vary nice last night. I tried my best to show 77 the eror of his ways. I tried to show him how to correct those erors but to this point no corrections. Just vary jumpy and sensitive when others comment to him
We where on the property with permission and sorry Jake no pictures. Lol
M45—I’ve Been Meaning To Do This— My Mother-in-law-Who is now 91 Did Not Take This Picture—However, A Very Similar Picture To This—We Had It Blown Up, Framed—It’s Probably My Favorite Picture We Have From Her Collection—I Was Stunned When I Saw Hers…Anyway: Here it Is. (Of Course, I hear—this is THE MOST VISITED LOCATION FOR TOURISTS)
lol Check you guys later. Heading to bed now. 03:00 in the moring here. Michiel is calling.
Nice photo Jake where is thajavascript:void(0);t located?
Ya M45;
427—I read—And Yes—You Tried—However, trolls want attention—that’s all..There is a problem in their brains—it’s known as narcissism . Obama has this affliction—he can’t help it.
My solution is to test the troll for the affliction—then treat him using my sprays or flames—If the troll doesn’t respond to treatments—I ask the owner of the blog to have him exterminated.
It’s Known As Peggy’s Cove
Peggys Cove (2009 population: approx. 46), also known as Peggy’s Cove from 1961 to 1976, is a small rural community located on the eastern shore of St. Margarets Bay in Nova Scotia’s Halifax Regional Municipalit
eggys Cove is 43 kilometres southwest of downtown Halifax and comprises one of the numerous small fishing communities located around the perimeter of the Chebucto Peninsula. The community is named after the cove
of the same name, a name also shared with Peggys Point, immediately to
the east of the cove. The village marks the eastern point of St. Margaret’s Bay.
History
The first recorded name of the cove was Eastern Point Harbour or
Peggs Harbour in 1766. The village is likely named after Saint
Margaret’s Bay (Peggy being the nickname for Margaret), which Samuel de Champlain named after his mother Margarite.[1]
There has been much folklore created to explain the name. One story
suggests the village may have been named after the wife of an early
settler. The popular legend claims that the name came from the sole
survivor of a shipwreck at Halibut Rock near the cove. Artist and resident William deGarthe
said she was a young woman while others claim she was a little girl too
young to remember her name and the family who adopted her called her
Peggy.[2]
The young shipwreck survivor married a resident of the cove and became
known as “Peggy of the Cove” attracting visitors from around the bay who
eventually named the village, Peggy’s Cove, after her nickname.[3]
The village was formally founded in 1811 when the Province of Nova
Scotia issued a land grant of more than 800 acres (3.2 km²) to six
families of German descent.
The settlers relied on fishing as the mainstay of their economy but
also farmed where the soil was fertile. They used surrounding lands to
pasture cattle. In the early 1900s the population peaked at about 300.
The community supported a schoolhouse, church, general store, lobster
cannery and boats of all sizes that were nestled in the Cove.
Many artists and photographers flocked to Peggys Cove. As roads
improved, the number of tourists increased. Today the population is
smaller but Peggys Cove remains an active fishing village and a
favourite tourist destination.
Roads and several homes were badly damaged at Peggys Cove in 2003 by the extensive flooding that accompanied Hurricane Juan which also damaged the cove’s breakwater. The breakwater was further washed away by Hurricane Bill
in 2009, allowing waves to seriously damage a home and giftshop, and
washed away one of the cove’s characteristic wooden fish sheds.
Peggys Point Lighthouse
Peggys Point
Peggys Point Lighthouse
Location
Peggys Cove, Nova Scotia
Coordinates
44°29′34″N 63°55′03″W
Year first constructed
1914 (station est. in 1868)
Year first lit
1915
Construction
Concrete, steel
Tower shape
Octagonal pyramidal
Markings / pattern
White tower with red lantern
Height
15 metres (49 ft)
Focal height
22 metres (72 ft)
Characteristic
F red
Admiralty number
H3660
NGA number
10040
ARLHS number
CAN-369
Peggys Cove is one of the busiest tourist attractions in Nova Scotia and is a prime attraction on the Lighthouse Trail scenic drive. The community’s famous lighthouse marks the eastern entrance of St. Margarets Bay and is officially known as the Peggys Point Lighthouse.
Peggys Cove has a classic red-and-white lighthouse still operated by the Canadian Coast Guard. The light station is situated on an extensive granite
outcrop at Peggys Point, immediately south of the village and its cove.
This lighthouse is one of the most-photographed structures in Atlantic Canada[citation needed] and one of the most recognizable lighthouses in the world.[4]
Visitors may explore the granite outcrop on Peggys Point around the
lighthouse; despite numerous signs warning of unpredictable surf
(including one on a bronze plaque on the lighthouse itself), several
incautious visitors each year are swept off the rocks by waves,
sometimes drowning.[5]
The first lighthouse at Peggys Cove was built in 1868 and was a
wooden house with a beacon on the roof. At sundown the keeper lit a kerosene oil lamp magnified by a catoptric reflector
(a silver-plated mirror) creating the red beacon light marking the
eastern entrance to St. Margarets Bay. That lighthouse was replaced by
the current structure, an octagonal lighthouse which was built in 1914.
It is made of reinforced concrete but retains the eight-sided shape of
earlier generations of wooden light towers. It stands almost 15 metres
(50 ft) high. The old wooden lighthouse became the keeper’s dwelling and
remained near to the current lighthouse until it was damaged by Hurricane Edna
in 1954 and was removed. The lighthouse was automated in 1958. Since
then, the red light was changed to white light, then to a green light in
the late 1970s. Finally to conform to world standards the light was
changed to red in 2007.
The lighthouse used to contain a small Canada Post
office in the lower level during the summer months serving as the
village post office where visitors could send postcards and letters.
Each piece of mail received a special cancellation mark in the shape of the lighthouse. However Canada Post closed the lighthouse post office in November 2009 citing mold growth as a safety hazard.[6] The lighthouse at Peggys Cove was declared surplus by the Canadian Coast Guard in June 2010, along with almost all lighthouses in Canada. The lighthouse has until May 29, 2012 to be nominated under the Heritage Lighthouse Protection Act
by a group willing to look after it, or the lighthouse will face
disposal. The province of Nova Scotia has discussed taking ownership but
has not made a decision.[7]
Tourism
The cove
From its inception, the community’s economy revolved around the
fishery, however, tourism began to overtake fishing in economic
importance following the Second World War. Today, Peggys Cove is primarily a tourist attraction[citation needed], although its inhabitants still fish for lobster,
and the community maintains a rustic undeveloped appearance. The
regional municipality and the provincial government have strict land-use
regulations in the vicinity of Peggys Cove, with most property
development being prohibited. Similarly there are restrictions on who
can live in the community to prevent inflation of property values for
year-round residents.
The historic Carpenter Gothic style St. John’s Anglican Church, the only church in Peggys Cove, is a municipally designated heritage site.[8]
LINK
Yes Jake ;
Nice write up Jake. I’ve never been there, maybe I’ll check it out the next time I go up there.
Jake Im into photography, I used to do film and color processing. Now digital & photo shop and printing on a wide format printer. I have high end Canon gear with L lenses
I have a low-end Pentax—and yes—My wife and I were “in” to this WITH—ASA 25 KODAK slide film—We got blow-ups all over our home of west coast scenes—We tried to show them at an exhibit at the Marin Fair in 1984—almost no interest LOL—but I think selling photos is very hard…
M45—That’s My kinda place to visit—looks really eclectic—bring your camera
Here’s Another:
I heard that the boat is no longer there.
I found this picture—hope it’s not the same one:
Jake:
Yep I like landscape & architectural photography and you know living near San Francisco there is plenty of subjects. I can’t wate for the Americas Cup
clique/klēk/
click/klik/
427, You try to be nice when Im here yet when I leave you are back to talking shit. after I leave. Puss.
Hey—The Troll Is Back!—Let’s See—I don’t Have a PHD—So The Troll Is Not narcissistic?—Well—I had No Idea That This Is How It Is When Trolls Are Concerned!—I beg Your Pardon Troll. I had no idea that my education level was directly related to your mental disorders!
Also—this apparently facilitates people kissing my ass. I’m very flattered. Thank you Troll!
Additionally, he’s here to tell us we can’t spell “click”. Also, we’re so dumb we can’t distinguish this from a clique—Well—I am honored to be in the presence of a Troll who can spell clique!
Anything else Troll?
Oh—Sorry—I forgot—427 is a “puss” because he talks “shit”—LOL
Anything else Troll?
You just backed me up you fool.
Oh—Sorry—I forgot– You also copy and paste ALL of your posts. Which make them other peoples posts, not yours. Never a thought of your own. Always others…. Copy Copy Copy Copy Copy Copy.
Folks—I’m Sorry—I must Confess Something—The Troll Has Exposed Me!—I’m Guilty!—I Have No Original Thoughts!—All I Do Is Cut And Paste!—And I Copy Others Posts!—I’m Very Sorry!—I’m A Charlatan!–I Confess!—I Confess!
Thank You Troll For Exposing This!—You’re Providing A Valuable Service Here!—Great Contribution!
Finally a realization. Now we can move on. Squash it.
I never left this post, Also I provided for you your mistakes and a resolution.
427—Well—you can read, but you talk “shit”—I had no idea you did this until our brilliant troll pointed this out!—In fact, I thought I had original thoughts—but apparently I don’t—Oh—BTW—This post is from someone else—it’s cut and pasted, because I copy copy copy—that’s all I do—ROFL!
I am a vary good shit talker, That was my major at Harvard
Do you have a PHD?
Jake,
Yep A Few
LOL!—It looks like you’re qualified to tell the troll that he’s a narcissist. I am not qualified.
Troll?—are we causing any of your meds to work overtime by talking behind your back?—maybe you could send a list of those meds to 427—he might be able to adjust them.—that was just a thought —although—it wasn’t original.
YES EDDIE I CAN HELP YOU WITH YOUR ISUES!
Here’s a Tutorial On Medications For Trolls—This “expert” Explains How Online Trolls “Pray” on Schizophrenics Who Do Not Respond To Their Meds:
Jake;
I think the Troll Eddie 77 mom told him to do some chores and he can’t play now.
It was not long ago that copy cat Jake & Eddie 77 The Troll got along as evident by this photo
shame!—Oh well—I guess you can talk shit and I’ll just cut and paste.
No Doubt